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#1 2022-07-20 16:03

JSM
Banned
Registered: 2021-04-23
Posts: 81

Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

Yesterday I did a new installation, of Q4OS Trinity. The full version took 3 hours! And the result is not yet usable and has to be adjusted with a lot of effort.

The product is becoming more and more overloaded, applications are being installed that are not necessary and only cause a lot of update. On the other hand, applications for easy expansion are NOT installed, for example GNOME software.

Also, a lot of system tools will be installed, which hardly anyone will ever use. On the other hand, a GNOME policy kit is NOT not installed!

In the control panel there are more and more options that make the configuration more time-consuming. There are different designs, different colors, different icons, but only about 10% is usable, the rest looks like from Venus or Mars, for extraterrestrials.

How would it be if you would clean out Q4OS Trinity, install only the minimum necessary applcations, a small but modern browser, a small text program, email does not need it by default. And please make a graphical interface that looks as pretty as Trisquel Mini! You can leave out games and many other applications. If someone wants it, they can install it later, using GNOME software or some other method.

One more word about applications specially adapted to Trinity, for example Dolphin Trinity, or kate Trinity. Unfortunately, these applications do NOT have the same functionality as the originals. I wonder if it needs them, or if it would be better to use the originals.

It would be great if Q4OS Trinity would remain a small and user-friendly distribution, easy and fast to install, with a good but small selection of applications and an open strategy for expansion, as the user decides for himself.

3 hours of installation effort for a distribution, which is then overfilled with unnecessary and unwanted applications and has a graphical appearance that is not satisfactory, has no future.

EDIT:

Or maybe it's time for a complete replacement and you create a "Q4OS light" with a different desktop? There are some good alternatives to Trinity.

Last edited by JSM (2022-07-20 20:04)

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#2 2022-07-20 22:46

tlmiller76
Member
From: AZ, USA
Registered: 2016-11-29
Posts: 440

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

JSM wrote:

Yesterday I did a new installation, of Q4OS Trinity. The full version took 3 hours! And the result is not yet usable and has to be adjusted with a lot of effort.

The product is becoming more and more overloaded, applications are being installed that are not necessary and only cause a lot of update. On the other hand, applications for easy expansion are NOT installed, for example GNOME software.

I'ts the TRINITY install, not the Gnome install...it's designed around having Trinity.  Not Gnome.  Why would someone who wants to use Trinity want to install Gnome?

Also, a lot of system tools will be installed, which hardly anyone will ever use. On the other hand, a GNOME policy kit is NOT not installed!

Again, this is the TRINITY installation, why would there be a Gnome policy kit installed?  This isn't the GNOME install.  Installing Gnome things in Trinity would defeat the purpose of calling it TRINITY.

In the control panel there are more and more options that make the configuration more time-consuming. There are different designs, different colors, different icons, but only about 10% is usable, the rest looks like from Venus or Mars, for extraterrestrials.

How would it be if you would clean out Q4OS Trinity, install only the minimum necessary applcations, a small but modern browser, a small text program, email does not need it by default. And please make a graphical interface that looks as pretty as Trisquel Mini! You can leave out games and many other applications. If someone wants it, they can install it later, using GNOME software or some other method.

Trisquel uses lxde, not Trinity.  The base source of Trinity was originally written 15+ years ago (KDE 3.5), and so yes, it's look is dated.  However, I find the deboinaire theme to be fairly modern looking when paired with a reasonable window decoration.

One more word about applications specially adapted to Trinity, for example Dolphin Trinity, or kate Trinity. Unfortunately, these applications do NOT have the same functionality as the originals. I wonder if it needs them, or if it would be better to use the originals.

You have that backwards, the trinity versions are, in essence, the originals.  These are forked from the ORIGINAL applications that were written for KDE 3.5, the versions that you're used to in Plasma are mostly ground up rewrites for newer versions of KDE, and thus share little, if any, source code.  And require KDE 5 & QT 5 libraries, which again, defeat the purpose of running Trinity if you're just going to install all the KF5 & QT5 libraries anyway.

It would be great if Q4OS Trinity would remain a small and user-friendly distribution, easy and fast to install, with a good but small selection of applications and an open strategy for expansion, as the user decides for himself.

3 hours of installation effort for a distribution, which is then overfilled with unnecessary and unwanted applications and has a graphical appearance that is not satisfactory, has no future.

Of course, all you have to do to avoid EVERYTHING you just complained about is on first boot after install choose "pure" which has very few additional applications outside of the essential.

EDIT:

Or maybe it's time for a complete replacement and you create a "Q4OS light" with a different desktop? There are some good alternatives to Trinity.

There is nothing that has the functionality of Trinity that doesn't also use SIGNIFICANTLY more resources.  Even LXDE (probably the second lightest desktop that is reasonably well packaged for most distro's after Trinity) is comparitively missing significant desktop functionality, and it's no more effficient.  It's also not been actively developed in 5+ years now as the entire dev team combined with the razor-qt team to port lxde to lxqt.  Which while much more modern than LXDE is NOWHERE near as lightweight or efficient.  It's actually barely lighter in resource usage than modern plasma (which has made AMAZING strides in improving efficiency in the last few years)

Last edited by tlmiller76 (2022-07-20 22:53)


Q4OS Trinity machine - Lenovo Thinkpad T495.  Ryzen 7 Pro 3700U, 32GB DDR4, 1TB Pioneer APS-20-1T NVMe + 512 GB Gudga NVMe, Vega 10 IGP, Intel AX200 Wifi-6 + BT 5.x

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#3 2022-07-21 01:14

JSM
Banned
Registered: 2021-04-23
Posts: 81

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

Are you from Q4OS team? You don't really seem to understand what I'm writing. 

Q4OS Trinity needs to be replaced, with new desktop, clean!

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#4 2022-07-21 03:24

tlmiller76
Member
From: AZ, USA
Registered: 2016-11-29
Posts: 440

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

JSM wrote:

Are you from Q4OS team? You don't really seem to understand what I'm writing. 

Q4OS Trinity needs to be replaced, with new desktop, clean!

No I'm not.  If you want a new desktop, that's why there's the Plasma version of Q4OS, use it.  Trinity is designed for low resource pc's that still want a full desktop experience.  It works EXTREMELY well for that niche, and there's no point in replacing it.  Trinity is quite "clean" and works well for what it's designed to do.  It's not designed to be the latest and most up to date desktop.  It's designed to be a continuation of KDE 3.5 for the modern pc.  Replacing it wouldn't make sense.  If you want a Gnome desktop, then there's only...5687 different distro's you can run to get that?  LXQT, only 300 or so for that.  XFCE, gotta choose between the 1000 or so there.  Mate, probably only 200 or so to get that.  Trinity there's only a handful of distro's that offer it, Q4OS dev's intelligently keep going because they have somewhat of a captive market.  You have low resource hardware?  Want a full desktop experience instead of just a window manager without it slowing to a crawl?  Use Trinity.  Oh, but don't want to set there and put everything together yourself?  Use Q4OS.

Last edited by tlmiller76 (2022-07-21 03:25)


Q4OS Trinity machine - Lenovo Thinkpad T495.  Ryzen 7 Pro 3700U, 32GB DDR4, 1TB Pioneer APS-20-1T NVMe + 512 GB Gudga NVMe, Vega 10 IGP, Intel AX200 Wifi-6 + BT 5.x

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#5 2022-07-21 06:26

bin
Member
From: U.K.
Registered: 2016-01-28
Posts: 1,182

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

When you install Trinity you get 4 options.
Pure
Live
Basic
Kitchen Sink (Full)

The full version with a slow internet connection on a slow machine would probably be a bit boring - so why have you used it when the installer quite clearly shows the differences? OK I get that you're feeling frustrated. However - and forgive me if I sound a bit harsh - you do seem to have made the worst possible choice based on your own stated requirements.

The Basic install provides just what you have said you want - I think the Live is marginally quicker to install and will again give you what you ask for.

One more word about applications specially adapted to Trinity, for example Dolphin Trinity, or kate Trinity. Unfortunately, these applications do NOT have the same functionality as the originals.

Pardon? These are the 'originals'. If you just install Dolphin you get the application from KDE5.x as opposed to Trinity which is KDE 3.5x

The whole basis of KDE has always been to allow users to customise just about everything. In other words what you have said you want.

a good but small selection of applications and an open strategy for expansion, as the user decides for himself.

Since 1996 I don't think I have ever installed any linux version and been happy with the default appearance.  It takes a wee while to get a mental map of the relationship between the different bits of the control panel.
Do a Basic install - forget about all the extras and just learn to drive it.

If you need help - ask.

Be prepared to break it and start again - that way you learn.

Last edited by bin (2022-07-21 08:50)

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#6 2022-07-21 09:16

judydudi
Member
From: Hamburg
Registered: 2016-10-28
Posts: 79
Website

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

I would like to join the previous speakers.
Trinity in particular is part of what makes q4os special.
For me, it is the first choice when I want to help someone with an older PC move to LINUX.
There are so many little details that I love about it. The profiles are one of them, but also the screensaver that works like a slide show. For faster computers, I now use Plasma Desktop. The fact that it took you 3 hours to install may be due to other things. Internet connection or hardware? Even on 10 year old computers I only use SSDs.

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#7 2022-07-21 11:18

q4osteam
Q4OS Team
Registered: 2015-12-06
Posts: 3,586
Website

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

@JSM
You are right, Trinity has its own significant drawbacks. But it also has a few outstanding and unique qualities you can find nowhere else, so it's the reason we are maintaining Q4OS Trinity edition. We will take a look at the complaints you have posted and try to solve as much as possible. If you report issues, please be as specific as possible for us to be able to reproduce and investigate. We would be really happy to make Q4OS Trinity edition more usable.

We can recommend you to apply the "Basic" profile upon Q4OS installation as a restricted software set. You can also give a try plain Debian installation with Trinity desktop, it may solve a few issues for you. After all, there are plenty of other Linux distributions with different desktop environments you may find more useful. Anyway thanks for any valuable reporting.

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#8 2022-07-21 13:45

JSM
Banned
Registered: 2021-04-23
Posts: 81

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

@q4osteam

It's good that you recognized the problem.

I think it doesn't make much sense if different distributions offer a light version. There are too few customers and too few developers for this.

Join forces and develop a new real light distribution, with only one light desktop, choose a good one that works perfectly with either Debian or Arch. Rebuild it, do not copy something old. Then close the other projects.

Diversity has no future, concentration of forces is the solution. It only needs one or two light distribution, but stable and with a group of good developers.

I hope it will be a success. Oh, maybe a few people from Tiny Core will also help, or ArchBang?

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#9 2022-07-21 19:03

tlmiller76
Member
From: AZ, USA
Registered: 2016-11-29
Posts: 440

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

JSM wrote:

@q4osteam

It's good that you recognized the problem.

I think it doesn't make much sense if different distributions offer a light version. There are too few customers and too few developers for this.

Join forces and develop a new real light distribution, with only one light desktop, choose a good one that works perfectly with either Debian or Arch. Rebuild it, do not copy something old. Then close the other projects.

Diversity has no future, concentration of forces is the solution. It only needs one or two light distribution, but stable and with a group of good developers.

I hope it will be a success. Oh, maybe a few people from Tiny Core will also help, or ArchBang?

A single desktop solution will never work.  Those who want it to look like MacOS (and there's a LOT) won't ever agree to something for those that want "classic" desktop functionality.  Those that believe in GTK won't ever concede to those who adore QT, and those that will only use EFL think both of those groups are on drugs.


Q4OS Trinity machine - Lenovo Thinkpad T495.  Ryzen 7 Pro 3700U, 32GB DDR4, 1TB Pioneer APS-20-1T NVMe + 512 GB Gudga NVMe, Vega 10 IGP, Intel AX200 Wifi-6 + BT 5.x

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#10 2022-07-22 00:43

JSM
Banned
Registered: 2021-04-23
Posts: 81

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

@q4osteam

You can add an option to the full version where the user can make some selections. This allows the user to benefit from the full version and still exclude applications that he does not need. If he excludes something, you can offer a voluntary alternative. This should work fine since the packets are downloaded and are not part of an ISO (I think).

Examples are:

LibreOffice Suite (Alternative abiword, gnumeric, or "something else")
Firefox (Alternative Midori, or "something else")
etc.

This would reduce the installation time and prevent unnecessary applications. Nevertheless, it does not endanger the installation, because you only offer the options that can be excluded well.

A good pre-configured desktop would also be helpful. Choose something simple, with good settings, for example Debonaire, or Q4OS-Default, but with sizes adapted to the screen an "normal" colors.

It would also be good to display a warning on the "Look Switcher" that all settings are lost when switching. Or you try to copy the settings to the new look, if that is possible.

Please remove outdated applications, for example Konqueror browser. I don't think anyone is happy with that. And it makes a very bad impression if you install the Konqueror browser and firefox next to it. The difference is just too big.

Integrates this "GNOME policy kit" so that the user can also use GNOME Disk (and others).

But again my basic idea:

A completely new light distribution, with a new light desktop (or the best one that exists today), without old applications and easily expandable, even with GNOME packages. It has no to be named Q4OS, also "simple Linux" or "linuxchico" can be nice.

Some try to do this, but they make the mistake of building on old things:

https://www.linuxliteos.com/
https://www.lxle.net/

some more:

https://www.techradar.com/news/best-lig … nux-distro

I have tested some of these distributions, but nothing is really satisfying. Either the ISO are larger than 1GB (!), or there is no graphical installer, or it requires up to 2GB of Ram...there is always a catch. Too bad! Best of all, besides Q4O's Trinity, I like Trisquel Mini and it's strange that it practically never appears on such lists. It comes with very few applications, a well-designed desktop and is very expandable. So a good role model, you shod test it once:

https://trisquel.info/

Also Debian (the original) with Xfce is working very good and is not really slower than Q4OS Trinity (with 1GB RAM). I have never tested Debian with LXDE, not even with MATE or any of the others:

https://wiki.debian.org/DesktopEnvironment

It is becoming more and more difficult to find a small distribution, which is easy to install even for beginners and is quick to install. If you have an old computer, you usually don't have money for a high-speed internet connection either!

I have attached a snapshot of my desktop. Sorry for the poor quality, but I haven't figured out how to improve the resolution on KSnapshot yet. It does not even require a wallpaper and icons on the desktop. All this stuff disappears anyway behind the window of the first application you start. The menu should also be set to a simpler view by default.

Last edited by JSM (2022-07-22 01:21)


Attachments:
png snapshot2.png, Size: 39.24 KiB, Downloads: 51

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#11 2022-07-22 03:33

tlmiller76
Member
From: AZ, USA
Registered: 2016-11-29
Posts: 440

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

JSM wrote:

@q4osteam

You can add an option to the full version where the user can make some selections. This allows the user to benefit from the full version and still exclude applications that he does not need. If he excludes something, you can offer a voluntary alternative. This should work fine since the packets are downloaded and are not part of an ISO (I think).

Examples are:

LibreOffice Suite (Alternative abiword, gnumeric, or "something else")
Firefox (Alternative Midori, or "something else")
etc.

This would reduce the installation time and prevent unnecessary applications. Nevertheless, it does not endanger the installation, because you only offer the options that can be excluded well.

A good pre-configured desktop would also be helpful. Choose something simple, with good settings, for example Debonaire, or Q4OS-Default, but with sizes adapted to the screen an "normal" colors.

It would also be good to display a warning on the "Look Switcher" that all settings are lost when switching. Or you try to copy the settings to the new look, if that is possible.

Please remove outdated applications, for example Konqueror browser. I don't think anyone is happy with that. And it makes a very bad impression if you install the Konqueror browser and firefox next to it. The difference is just too big.

Konqueror is one of those things that can't be skipped on Trinity.  Konqueror is ALSO the default file manager that Trinity depends on, thus it cannot be removed without the Trinity dev team replacing it.  This is one of the few things I actually agree on you with.  I hate Konqueror, and wish they'd replace it with Dolphin.  However, Trinity dev team is VERY small, and this would require MAJOR code updates to completely change the default file manager for everything in the entire desktop.


Integrates this "GNOME policy kit" so that the user can also use GNOME Disk (and others).

But again my basic idea:

A completely new light distribution, with a new light desktop (or the best one that exists today), without old applications and easily expandable, even with GNOME packages. It has no to be named Q4OS, also "simple Linux" or "linuxchico" can be nice.

Some try to do this, but they make the mistake of building on old things:

https://www.linuxliteos.com/
https://www.lxle.net/

some more:

https://www.techradar.com/news/best-lig … nux-distro

I have tested some of these distributions, but nothing is really satisfying. Either the ISO are larger than 1GB (!), or there is no graphical installer, or it requires up to 2GB of Ram...there is always a catch. Too bad! Best of all, besides Q4O's Trinity, I like Trisquel Mini and it's strange that it practically never appears on such lists. It comes with very few applications, a well-designed desktop and is very expandable. So a good role model, you shod test it once:

https://trisquel.info/

There aren't "old" applications on Trinity.  They're still maintained, have the latest security patches.  Yes, they were ORIGINALLY written a long time ago, but that doesn't mean they need to be replaced.  VIM was written in the 70's I believe, and I don't hear you yelling we need a new text editor to replace it.

Trisquel made those lists 7-8 years ago.  LXDE is only "semi" maintained at this point.  The entire original dev team has utterly abandoned it.  There is a small group of Arch users who are continuing to try to keep it developed, but it's a small team.  The only upside to that is that LXDE SHOULD now be capable of running on Wayland since the main thing the Arch team did is port it to GTK3.

Also Debian (the original) with Xfce is working very good and is not really slower than Q4OS Trinity (with 1GB RAM). I have never tested Debian with LXDE, not even with MATE or any of the others:

https://wiki.debian.org/DesktopEnvironment

And this is where the concept of "attractive" issue comes in.  You think XFCE is nice.  I hate XFCE.  Find it utterly repulsive looking.  And thus the "one desktop" idea shows it's issue.  Find 20 linux users willing to agree on the same desktop to use, or even can agree that a single desktop is attractive.  Many people WANT desktop icons.  Many people WANT the things you're saying to get rid of.

It is becoming more and more difficult to find a small distribution, which is easy to install even for beginners and is quick to install. If you have an old computer, you usually don't have money for a high-speed internet connection either!

I have attached a snapshot of my desktop. Sorry for the poor quality, but I haven't figured out how to improve the resolution on KSnapshot yet. It does not even require a wallpaper and icons on the desktop. All this stuff disappears anyway behind the window of the first application you start. The menu should also be set to a simpler view by default.

It's not that hard.  Distrowatch category "old computers":

ksnip-20220721-193235.png

While far from a complete listing, that's 11 distro's to get started with, and there's plenty more that simply aren't listed there.

Last edited by tlmiller76 (2022-07-22 03:45)


Q4OS Trinity machine - Lenovo Thinkpad T495.  Ryzen 7 Pro 3700U, 32GB DDR4, 1TB Pioneer APS-20-1T NVMe + 512 GB Gudga NVMe, Vega 10 IGP, Intel AX200 Wifi-6 + BT 5.x

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#12 2022-07-22 04:58

witloof
Member
From: Thailand
Registered: 2017-11-15
Posts: 56

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

Hi, this is
' witloof " making some noise after being absent for X years

Having read all of the above, I can only say, - Keep It As It Is -.
I have been running Trinity on another distro, because my thoughts at the time were <a little> like JSM is thinking now.
I came to my senses 3 weeks ago.
Trinity q4os installs Flawlessly, in a short time
( less than 30 minutes for me ), on old computers ( 16 y - 14 Y - 13 y ).
Every thing works 100%
I can not say that about other distros running Trinity.
That's all I have to say !
Keep It As It Is.
Thanks

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#13 2022-07-22 11:06

q4osteam
Q4OS Team
Registered: 2015-12-06
Posts: 3,586
Website

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

JSM wrote:

But again my basic idea: A completely new light distribution, with a new light desktop (or the best one that exists today), without old applications and easily expandable, even with GNOME packages.

Nice idea. Unfortunately we don't have as much development resources to start that with.

We believe Q4OS Trinity edition is, among other distributions, the closest approach to what you are requesting. Yes, there are bugs they need fix, but we are trying build the concept you actually describe.

You suggest, for example, adding Gnome policy kit, or even Gnome applications, to the core system, but it would directly break the design of lightness. For those who don't want install Gnome disk utility, heavy superfluous Gnome daemon would load the system to no effect. So we came with the idea of Desktop profiler, it allows you to install a refined set of packages easily and get a sort of lightness.

We recommend you to check "custom profiles" feature of Desktop profiler, it may be what you are searching for. Desktop profiler enables you to define a custom software sets and apply them upon distro installation. It works even with other then Trinity and Plasma desktop environments, it's applicable generaly, please read https://q4os.org/dqa016.html

We dislike placing direct links to competitive products and distributions on Q4OS Forum. Our forum should serve as a place to primarily discuss about Q4OS and to get help all about Q4OS, plus upstream software and products connected indeed.

Last edited by q4osteam (2022-07-22 11:18)

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#14 2022-07-22 12:22

Midas
Member
Registered: 2017-12-15
Posts: 141

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

As a layman I deeply sympathize with JSM observations and concerns, even if I'm not that constrained by old hardware -- I like my resources to stay pretty much available for anything I throw at them instead of just being busy keeping the system environment happy.

That being said and from my limited Linux experience, I think that "old computers" Distrowach list hits bull's eye with the right suggestions: in the podium, MX Linux has been consistently lauded as the nimblest and best, Puppy takes a modular and easy way (on the user) to change stuff by adding and removing modules, and Q4OS... we all know and love.

I'd add that Tiny Core is wonderfully compact and remains a favorite of hardcore techies and only Alpine Linux is missing, probably because it's so non-conventional and thus has a somewhat steep learning curve...

Personally, the major point of JSM's post is how it points out the heavy fragmentation of development effort; I am all in for diversity but most times the Linux camp (as well as Android's, for that matter) just feels like a bunch of mostly isolated devs, each one scratching their particular hitch.

Last edited by Midas (2022-07-22 12:22)

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#15 2022-07-22 15:25

q4osteam
Q4OS Team
Registered: 2015-12-06
Posts: 3,586
Website

Re: Where is Q4OS going with Trinity?

Midas wrote:

... the major point of JSM's post is how it points out the heavy fragmentation of development effort ...

We would disagree. Almost all about the original post are complaints of Q4OS Trinity edition. Of course, it's on the right place and we take it seriously. Any opinion is worth to think through, if courteous.

We would generally ask everybody to keep discussion on topic, as much as possible to keep it clean, or create a new thread. Anyway, as this thread became quite off-topic, we have created a new one in the "Off topic" section of the forum to follow up https://www.q4os.org/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4188 and kindly ask participants to discuss here, if find it more appropriate.

Last edited by q4osteam (2022-07-22 15:34)

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